This is the talk page for discussing the FortForecast.Tracker article.
Relevant IRC conversation:
namespace: I just get this sense of "I don't touch the stuff" as an attitude when it comes to web 'things' for the average "effective person". Now note. namespace: When you hear this you might go "dude wtf are you talking about I know plenty of effective people..." namespace: Stop, selection bias. namespace: Techie effective people will totally use this stuff, because they know how to stop it from eating them. The average person is both not terribly skilled (a separate problem), and they've been trained that web forums are where weird nerds go to waste time. namespace: Personal example. namespace: My mother once tried an online support group, then stopped when she realized it was just a place for people to be codependent and lame. Did this color her entire perception of web forums? Probably, yeah. namespace: Selection bias and irrational? Sure. namespace: But for most people, you need some kind of explicit social contract that you're not going to waste time, there is a real purpose/mission that can be pointed to as part of participation, etc. namespace: In general. namespace: I think it's *good to have that social contract* even if the first thing isn't true. namespace: Which I should argue for in a separate section underneath. namespace: It's definitely one of the reasons I've backed off from the vast majority of web-forum-y things. Obormot: Ok... Obormot: What exactly do you have in mind when you talk about time wasting namespace: I remember when I was 12. namespace: And using web forums. namespace: I'd get into this pattern where I would refresh the page over and over for new posts. namespace: Now, I was a kid and it's not like I had better things to do. namespace: But. namespace: That kind of memory sticks with you. namespace: At any rate. Obormot: Ok Obormot: See namespace: I'd just like to note. Obormot: That's exactly the sort of example I wanted namespace: This is not a *mission critical* feature. Obormot: "refreshing page for new posts" Obormot: More of this please namespace: That was in there. :p namespace: But okay. Obormot: More, more emphasized, and more explicit :) Obormot: Also and separately: Obormot: The example of your mother seems to be about what sorts of content users post namespace: Oh it is. Obormot: Which seems to be in an entirely separate domain of problem and solution namespace: Totally. namespace: At the same time. namespace: My point is more that. namespace: Okay so. namespace: You've been to a coffee shop right? Obormot: uhh Obormot: ... I guess. namespace: Ha. namespace: Wow I was expecting that to be a "duh yes". namespace: My point is. namespace: If you go to coffeeshops you have certain expectations about them, *any* coffee shop that go beyond serving coffee and these exist in spite of the fact they're all run by totally different people and really might have completely different social crowds hanging out at them. namespace: I think the same thing happens with web forums. Obormot: Having a hard time parsing that sentence namespace: Okay like this. namespace: Most web forums have a culture of fucking around. namespace: Therefore, most peoples stereotype of a web forum is that it will have a significant culture of fucking around. namespace: Pretty much every web forum I've been on was like this to some degree. namespace: Or another. Obormot: Ok Obormot: That's true-ish, let's say I agree Obormot: What's the connection to software antipatterns that waste time or promote timewasting namespace: I think to re-engage people who've been turned off by web forums period, you need to credibly claim to be different. At the same time, this is not mission critical it's a convenience thing. I'm putting down ideas in order of what I feel like thinking about not their importance. namespace: So you know. namespace: If this is going to be a huge unsure discussion thing, we don't have to have it right now. Obormot: Ok so the connection is just "things we need to do to engage, whatever their nature", not "this is part of one technical issue" Obormot: Right? namespace: I mean it's both? namespace: In terms of *engaging*. namespace: I think this might be important to implement. namespace: In terms of technical issues, I think it's also of moderate importance. namespace: I think it could be very cool and reduce a lot of the pain I feel using traditional web forums. namespace: The reduction of pain is the technical goal. namespace: The time wasting is the marketing, I think. Obormot: To clarify Obormot: ... brb tea namespace: K. Obormot: So Obormot: Is it your view that "there's a culture of fucking around on web forums" is related to, or caused by, or is a symptom of, the same underlying *technical/design* problem that also has to do with things like "time wasted by reloading a page for new posts"? Obormot: Or, not namespace: Hmmm. namespace: I do think they're related, yeah. I don't know if it's 1:1 causation, but it does seem interesting to me that pretty much every forum falls into the same pattern here. Maybe it's a human social thing? namespace: It usually goes like this: namespace: You have a serious, mission-oriented section. namespace: Then people want to talk about stuff that's not the mission, which is reasonable. namespace: So you make an off-topic section for people to chill out a bit in. namespace: And what happens is. namespace: I'm basing this off my personal experience in web forums. Obormot: We've talked about this namespace: The off topic section develops a separate culture from the rest of the site. namespace: Yeah. Obormot: I agree with you Obormot: All of this is true namespace: I think that. namespace: The refreshing. namespace: Stimulates the fun/gambling/etc part of the brain. namespace: And while that can be good. namespace: I think it kind of degenerates into stimulating that for its own sake and thus focusing on the most active portion of the site, which is usually the off topic section since more things are off topic than on topic. Obormot: So you think the "software antipatterns that encourage or cause timewasting" promote, or get people into the frame of mind of, or encourage, the cultural thing? namespace: I think they encourage it, yeah. namespace: I don't think they *cause* it. Obormot: Such that maybe there's a feedback loop between the two? Obormot: At least partially? namespace: But it's like-yeah. namespace: At least partially. Obormot: Ok Obormot: I get it now namespace: Now. namespace: As you pointed out. namespace: One solution is to make sure you pick a topic/mission so broad that you won't run out of on-topic shit to discuss. namespace: But even that I'm a little skeptical of just because off topic sections are so much damn fun. Obormot: So Obormot: Here's my view namespace: Mission-oriented discussion is more effortful. namespace: Okay. Obormot: The cultural aspect of this is tricky and complicated, but on the other hand could simply disappear if not encouraged via non-cultural aspects (and given mission broadness and so forth) Obormot: Attacking it *directly* may well be unproductive namespace: Maybe. namespace: At any rate. namespace: This is an idea I had in my head. Obormot: Attacking it directly *in the context of designing the Tracker* is definitely a bad idea. namespace: And it's been in there for a damn while. Obormot: No, I don't really disagree with you on any of this Obormot: At most I am agnostic namespace: So I'm letting it out so I can say to myself "this interesting idea is basically fleshed out on the wiki, you can return to it at any time, lets focus on the rest of it". Obormot: But I definitely think that the cultural aspect of this needs to be set aside on this page namespace: Can you put that down as a talk note or something? Obormot: What you definitely need to do, imo, is talk more about the technical/design aspect
